The Weekender XLBS Backstagers Call to Arms
March 30, 2013 by dracs
For some website features, you will need a FREE account and for some others, you will need to join the Cult of Games.
Or if you have already joined the Cult of Games Log in now
What difference will having a FREE account make?
Setting up a Free account with OnTableTop unlocks a load of additional features and content (see below). You can then get involved with our Tabletop Gaming community, we are very helpful and keen to hear what you have to say. So Join Us Now!
Free Account Includes
- Creating your own project blogs.
- Rating and reviewing games using our innovative system.
- Commenting and ability to upvote.
- Posting in the forums.
- Unlocking of Achivments and collectin hobby xp
- Ability to add places like clubs and stores to our gaming database.
- Follow games, recommend games, use wishlist and mark what games you own.
- You will be able to add friends to your account.
What's the Cult of Games?
Once you have made a free account you can support the community by joing the Cult of Games. Joining the Cult allows you to use even more parts of the site and access to extra content. Check out some of the extra features below.
Cult of Games Membership Includes
- Reduced ads, for a better browsing experience (feature can be turned on or off in your profile).
- Access to The Cult of Games XLBS Sunday Show.
- Extra hobby videos about painting, terrain building etc.
- Exclusive interviews with the best game designers etc.
- Behind the scenes studio VLogs.
- Access to our live stream archives.
- Early access to our event tickets.
- Access to the CoG Greenroom.
- Access to the CoG Chamber of Commerce.
- Access the CoG Bazarr Trading Forum.
- Create and Edit Records for Games, Companies and Professionals.
I think that getting rid of the thumbs down is a very good idea. The thing that people must remember is that the trolls looking for the fame for their post will need us to rise up and comment on their goads. With out the thumbs down the only joy they get is getting into a post war so we must try not to fall into the trap.
On another note. I have been a lurker in the hobby forums for a few years since my best friend and gaming partner died. I have not painted and done any gaming in years. That was until I got the the email from privateer press with the release of the mountain king. Now I am back into gaming and trying to start a journey men’s league in my local gaming store. This new book for hordes I hope brings more people back into the hobby:
Thank you for joining the site, and a big thank you for contributing. 🙂
Hopefully you have a great return to the hobby.
BTW the Mountain king is just awesome!
Heh I was waiting for a give away for this bad boy. Probably THE most gorgeous model PP have done and overall to be honest.
With the economic times I’m sadly about to “celebrate” my 2nd Anniversary of unemployment. However due to this I’ve decided to start a small painting commission service for my locals and I would love to get this model to add to my portfolio, however I am too skint to get a nearly £100 model even if it is more of an investment.
So winning would be awesome but if I don’t I hope the winner enjoys fully this awesome piece of art.
Apart from sending a message for a chance of a gimme.
I can see your point on the hating potential towards companies effecting the game. I’ve heard a LOT of hate for GW. I stopped GW simply because where I am, I am the lone gamer. I can’t get my small group of mates to game and a game as big as Warhammer/40K simply doesn’t appeal to them. Their models always make me WANT to come back, but I can’t so all I can do is window shop and wipe up the drool once I’m done.
It sucks their choices have effected companies such as Miniwargaming, (since I went permanent silver member day one of joining) however in this day and age companies will do this even if there is little chance of them going under. As long as they keep their standard (which I’m sure they will) I will like them, sadly I’m in no position to kindle the love.
On the point of thumbs, I’m not much of a commenter and a heavy lurker so I don’t use them but allowing people to express their opinions more by getting rid of the potential to hide that opinion because people don’t like it is only a good thing
Its a difficult one. I think with the goings on over the last week or so the fallout of miniwargaming ceasing shop trading meant it was something that was bound to cause a bit of a backlash, and I dont think when something of that magnitude happens its something you can ignore.
In general though, I can’t say I’ve noticed a real negative trend on GW stuff, although I havent really liked recent the releases so perhaps I’m just not seeing it because I am not bothered if people say bad stuff about it.
(I do like some of the Tau thats just come out though , the pathfinders is a nice box set and some of the characters are nice little models too)
I havent really paid much attention to the thumbs up and down stuff since I joined the site myself, I say my piece and people agree or don’t , but if its being used as a way to silence people or such then I would say get rid, everyones opinion is valid in my view, I may disagree with some, but that doesnt mean they shouldnt be heard.
I’m not sure how you could restrict the flow of dialogue on a given post though, if people end up talking about GW the company on a breaking news post about some new model, I can see how that could get annoying or at least irritating for people just wanting to look at the new stuff, but the only way to stop that I think is if we as a community make a conscious effort to steer the conversation to be just about the mini/game or whatever, because if we rely on moderation poor Sam and Ben will end up spending all day deleting posts and everything, which isnt good for them or us.
If we can manage it with PP stuff, infinity stuff and all the rest, I’m sure as a community we can manage it with GW posts , but I would say that it would need to be a collective thing for it to have any effect.
I tried on various occasion to (gently) tell poeple that they weren’t forced into buying GW stuff but that they were bringing negativity to a place dedicated to poeple actually liking the games… I got lynched everytime so, now, I only avoid topics with names like: «To arms! GW no more!»
I can’t say I like the way they act but I really like 40k. I like the orks and I like converting and painting their models.
I would first of all like to say thank you for all the cool stuff you guys do. I can honestly say, hand on heart if it wasnt for BoW I wouldnt be playing warpath, infinity and incursion.
How about only have a like, but also the option to ‘hide’ someones comments? if there is someone who constantly posts negative posts you could just not view what they are saying?
And heck, if nothing else this post could be my ‘ermagerd I have entered every compo for the past 2 and a half years and I want a prize’
thanks for everything guys
stay sexy
Really thought-provoking episode and some difficult questions to answer. Taking the removal of “thumbs down” first as it’s the easiest to deal with. I’m in agreement, get rid of it. If someone it being a troll then a thumbs down is only going to encourage. If they’re not and are just making a geniune point that others may disagree with then I can’t see what a thumbs down adds to the dialogue.
As for the rest, it seems as if there are two questions being raised. Firstly, should BoW attempt to clamp down on certain discussions (whatever they might be), and secondly, should the business side of the minis industry cease to be a topic of conversation on BoW. Dealing with them in order, as long as any given discussion doesn’t cross the line of good taste then it should be allowed a discussion and people can pick and choose which they want to engage with. I have little interest in the upcoming Tau release as I haven’t played 40K regularly since 2nd ed and I have a particularly dislike for this particular army. That doesn’t mean I don’t think BoW should run a Tau week, it just means I’ll self-select out of accessing that content. Members who have little interest in the business side of GW can make that same decision too. If a thread pops up about GW’s policies or pricing then they can ignore it and post in the threads that do interest them. If discussion of GW’s business starts to overwhelm the site (which I don’t think it does) then there are easy ways to deal with. For example, send all discussion of GW pricing to a specific and well-signposted thread and delete any new thread that starts up about it. That way the discussion doesn’t spam up the forums and folks can choose whether to engage with the thread or not.
As to the second issue, whether BoW should cease giving attention to the business of the mini-gaming industry, then I think it should not. This is perhaps unsurprising given I’ve already stated that members should be allowed to engage with what interests them on the site but specifically in this case I do think the discussion is important. I don’t think you can divorce the game from the company. Commercial considerations underpin everything any minis company does, not just GW, and they affect the games we play. About a year ago a common complaint against Mantic was that they were releasing the Corporation and Veer-myn in restic instead of plastic. The complaint being that this made the minis more expensive. Sound business reasons dictated the choice of material and by discussing them it helped remove a lot of negativity.
This is obviously an example of where discussion of the business has a positive effect whilst I appreciate the issue you’re trying to address is the outpouring of negativity towards almost every business decision GW makes so I suppose that raises the more specific question of whether discussion of GW’s business should be removed from the site. Again, I don’t think it’s a good idea. The fact that it generates it a lot of discussion shows that it’s something people care about and want to come to BoW to talk about. These people are all gamers, most of whom play GW games, which reflects the fact that the business of GW does impact on their gaming. There is also the danger of becoming seen as an apologist for GW if you clamp down on discussion of their business practises whilst devoting airtime and content to generally positive discussion of their product. That isn’t to say their product doesn’t warrant positive discussion, just that you run the risk of being seen as only saying good things about GW.
I’ll bring this to an end before I ramble on any more and try and see if I can come up with any conclusions to make sense of what I’ve said. I think BoW should continue to allow discussion of GW’s business and any other minis company’s business because you can’t divorce the games from it and it doesn’t have to just be a whinge-fest, it can yield construi
ctive dialogue. If it threatens to overwhelm the site and skew the content then compartmentalise it and sign-post it. Allow those who want to discuss it to do so and those who don’t want to discuss it to ignore it.
Great show as always, XLBS is my favourite show on BoW and worth the subscription alone.
It seems I can’t edit the above post so mu apologies for the typos.
i hope that wasn’t intentional but i couldn’t help but laugh 🙂 you raise a lot of good points and i agree with them and think the way of dealing with it is good, allow people who want to discuss it do so in there own area where you can venture if you wish or avoid if you dont
*big thumbs up*
I’m gonna go ahead and say I did that on purpose 😉
Forgot to mention the spot prizes thing. I think it’s a good idea though one which is a little risky. A scheme like this can’t help but be subjective which means it runs the risk of coming across as arbitrary or unfair (even if it’s not).
And one more thing, gief me moutain king plz 🙂
I almost forgot the spot prizes. Thanks for reminding me 😉
I like the idea and just so it doesn’t come off as looking somewhat subjective they should just give them all too me. Don’t stone me if by some chance I do get them all 😛 What the tarnation am I saying. My wife needs a timer on the computer so it stops me from over posting. @redben if you do get the M. King send me a photo as this is one sick model!
I’m new to BoW and new to back stage, I feel that taking away the thumbs down is a good idea as drumhell3r said.
I feel that each game system and expansion that you guys review you give a fair and honest review and generally there is minimal discussion about the way the company acts unless it’s to do with other products they are due to release soon. I watched the interviews you did with the designer and found them very very interesting and hope to see more of them as it gives you a chance to see it from the inside from someone else’s perspective.
You will always get people who are trying to express their opinions good or bad about games that they love or hate. The way it is handled here at BoW is above and beyond most communities around and allows a lot more freedom. The way you handel the problem you feel you have at the moment by removing the thumbs down and continuing with the effort of pming people and letting know there is a time and a place for comments that are not related to the discussion and seem to be out right abusive or nasty is the best way to keep the atmosphere that is already here
In any hobby, I think the community chatter is like the wife always going on about everything. It’s when she stops talking that you had better be worried. ;o)
In any business area, the dissatisfied customers will always be more vocal, whereas the happy customers are usually much more silent.
If there was a company forum for each of the bigger companies for business side of discussions and everyone tries to keep that discussion out of the game forums that could make the difference.
this is not a bad idea
to be honest I’ve seen the thumbs but mainly ignored them the idea of censoring someone because I don’t agree with their post or views is not for the best as you’ll end up with people that reinforce the one thought and other valid ways of looking at ideas will be quashed.
theirs been studys where people watched tv programs and the only watched ones their views creating a closed loop , everybody thinks like I do as that’s all I see .
if you want to keep thumbs up to show that view is appreciated that would be best.
I agree with you.
I, myself, never give negative ratings. I only rate positively when I like a post.
Having only come to the Beast of Wars and Backstage community in the last couple of weeks I can’t really comment on how the forums and comments are for negativity.
However I do agree that removing the thumbs down function is a good idea as it puts more emphasis on whether a post is a good constructive post.
My suggest links into a few of the things you guys have been batting about on weekenders in the last couple of weeks, and that is rewarding the good members of the community rather than punishing the bad.
My idea is that if you are able to track the karma points of members that you spend time identifying those in the community that stand out as regular contributors that provide good worthwhile discussion without descending into insults and negativity. Once you have ID these people make them champions of the community on here with various reward levels being small things like special avatar icons moving towards miniatures or gift sets. Then to larger rewards like appearing in the weekender or special one off videos or events perhaps discussing their love of the hobby.
There are a couple of risk to this kind of system that have to be examined and discussed by the BoW team.
Firstly the danger of fragmenting the community into those that can post regularly and discuss things from those that may make one or two posts but however are fantastic post. Also stopping this idea which can occur of the privileged few getting everything causing the masses to descend into even worse negativity
Secondly how do you deal with your international market, do you offer larger rewards for people who can’t attend or look at webcam events.
Well that’s my thoughts, just on a personal note after coming across on the table on Geek and Sundry, the whole team at BoW have really brought back my love of gaming and showed me that there is more to this hobby than just Warhammer and 40K which I loved as child but just don’t have to the time now to fully put my heart and soul into. So thanks guys and keep up the great work
Hi Guys
First post on BoW. I like the idea of removing the thumbs down on the site forums. as one of you said if you like a comment then like it if not stay quite. I hate reading rants on forums its just a waste of everyones time, when it can be better spent discussing the hobby at large.
Wish I was there gamming. Please can we see more Battle videos. Love the Feasts of Gaming done last week, liked it so much both my friend and I are looking at buying the game and other board games as GW is getting so expensive.
Keep up the fantastic vids and work you all do. :o)
I like what warren where saying that we are in danger of seeming bitter (and launching in to the same old rants when ever one partigular Nottingham based games companny is in the news) – and BoW have most of the time been in partial
Removing thumbs down seem like a good idea, and maybe a “report post” kinda thing instead even if that is not very good as it will add to the staff/moderators workload
Hmmmm the whole Games Workshop anger and insults has gotten a little tired as far as I can see. I started off in the gaming hobby with Warhammer back when I was alot younger so it will always have a special place in my heart because of this. And a couple of years ago when they put there prices up (again) and other things went on I did find that I got angry about it. But as time has passed I have found it anoys me less and less. Games Workshop are a huge buisness that are run by accountants, and those accountants will do whatever they can to make as much money as possible for there share holders and thats just how it works. I think another reason it doesn’t bother me as much is there is nothing they are making I want. I moved on to other games which I enjoy alot more than I ever did the Games Workshop games. Also I think it is worth thinking about the fact that there is no such thing as bad press, I think it would hurt them alot more if everyone just stopped talking about what they are doing wrong and focused on what they did right. The conversation would be alot shorter I know, but it would also keep them out of the headlines and give other games more of a chance. Its kind of like the press Macdonalds get for serving really bad food. Whenever you see those adverts saying dont eat this it will give you a heart attack, 9 out off ten people will just end up wanting a big mac 🙂 I hope this ramble made some sence anyway. At the end of the day focus on the good stuff, thats all we need to do to be happier gamers 🙂
I have to say I don’t really use the thumbs down on any forum I frequent so wouldn’t miss it.
I alaso am quite new to BoW BS, so i wouldn’t know all about the neg comments etc. I feel that you can reach more with ampositive mindset then a negative one. So the removal of the thumbs down could be a good thing, because it might be that the person commenting just wants a lot of thumbs down. Reward the positive and ignore the negative, but also everyone has a right to voice his/her opinions. Its what it does with you that what matters. I have a live motto, can i influence events, then do so. Dont talk about it, just do it. If events our out of my controle, i try not to let them bother me. That why i branched out from gw, and looking into other game systems, I could nag and whine about it, but that won’t get me anywhere. So i moved on. There are loads of other companys and games out there. Also i invested and gonna invested in kickstarters ro get involved in new games.
So stay positive and enjoy gaming i would say, whatever you play…..
“independence is a myth” Damn right, get rid of all this devolution nons… oh you mean for forums/website etc…
I think the flaw with the karma system here is that whoever came up with it wasn’t cynical enough to expect it to be abused.
I’m a global moderator on an airsoft forum were at one time we had a rep system that not only allowed an up/down vote but also made users give a reason for it, negative reps were given for trivial reasons such as asking how to fit a rail system to replicas the people giving the rep believed shouldn’t have rails, but what we saw was when certain forum “celebrities” or members of some teams were given neg rep for anything from spelling to borderline racism, 10 of their friends would give a positive rep saying it wasn’t justified weather it was or not, and then neg rep the person who gave the rep for something else. Eventually a large enough number of people abused the rep system or used it instead of reporting rules violations to the moderators that it just wasn’t worth the effort required to maintain it, and it was thrown out. Updates to the forum software have added similar systems to BoW’s thumbs, but again we saw negative score on posts for opinions, so the negative side was switched off, so now if someone posts something you disagree with there’s a revolutionary new system. You tell them polity, and you have a discussion about why you think they’re wrong, and just maybe someone learns something from it.
Either that or, y’know.. it descends into name calling and then we have to fix it…
I can see the argument for losing the thumbs down option, but it was handy for marking people who were being trollish; my view is if someones being an idiot, then tell them so. sometimes I can’t be bothered responding with a well constructed response (well I havent posted one to date!), and the thumbs system is a quick indicator.
I believe games should be judged on their own merit; the company behind this can provide longevity for the game, so is important in this respect. Companies like GW have been bashed for as long as I can remember and I see sites like this can act as a safety rekief valve – it lets people vent of their frustrations. Many people I have known over the year have expressed similar views, but come back to the same game after a suitable cooldown period. Anyway thats my tuppence!! Cheers guys.
I’m very new to BoW and BS and I never really pay attention to the thumbs up or down. The other forums I frequent don’t use them so I have no issues with them being removed.
Being totally honest it does bug me a bit hearing the negative aspects on things as much as I do… I think the way that you guys express things in the videos are more balanced than the community of a whole and I don’t mind that…
on the other hand I just chose not to read the forums that appear about certain companies etc as I am not interested… companies always do good and bad as long as I like the current product I am using then i am just interested in that.
I’d happily see thumbs down go as I really do believe if you don’t like something then just don’t take it on and ignore it… I know we are all guilty of not doing from time to time but maybe that suggestion would help promote that (Double post as couldn’t edit in to my original one sorry 🙂 )
An interesting episode – despite not being what I initially would have wanted from Backstage.
There is A LOT of anger out there for GW at the moment – and some of it is justifiable frustration (I feel) rather than just vitriolic nonsense. Gamers invest a lot of time, energy and cash in their hobby. Part of being in the community is a sense of on-going involvement: we want to be able to buy the new models and army books and be part of a living, breathing, growing universe. As soon as someone prices you out of the market, you feel cut-off. Yes, you still have your models and can, of course, run games however you want – including proxies and so forth – but, for some people, you suddenly feel out of the loop, when you don’t want to be. That is frustrating.
The problem, though, is internet ettiquette. People seem entitled to express their views in the most extreme manner when resorting to a keybaord rather than the spoken word. I wish people with GW issues – or any other company – would calm down a little, and remove the ‘Blood Red’ spectacles that seem to put such an angry Glaze on everything.
I wonder how seriously the company takes rants. I’m guessing that, just like the mad guy standing on a street-corner spouting hate, you get dismissed rather than listened to. Warren recently mentioned constructive ways to tell companies you are unhappy with them – such as considering carefully where you buy your gear. For me, this is the way to go. I think that unbalanced tirades are a waste of time – and most importantly, could dissuade potential new gamers from joining the community. Who’d want to be part of such a spiteful ‘gang’?
That, for me, would be the most damaging thing of all.
You’re right, dude. Everybody can have his two-minutes-of-fame thanks to the Internet. It can be a positive experience and it can be used in a bad way, as anything else.
But, what the internet brings is also diversity… You can choose the information you’re interested in and forget the rest.
GW don’t take rants seriously at all. What they do take seriously is their balance sheet. I used to work for a high street bank who moved a lot of their telephone banking offshore. It generated a large amount of complaints but very very few people switched to another bank because of it. As a result the bank were very happy to trade off the complaints for the increased profit.
While I agree with you insofar that some people have gone over the top with their anger, I would like to point out that it wasn’t always so.
What we’re seeing now, I feel, is simply a lot of pent up anger, brought on by years of abuse (for lack of better word) by Games Workshop. The first price-hike wasn’t that bad. The second was annoying. The third hurt. The fourth killed the local community…
And throughout all that time, more than a decade by now, it has been all but impossible to get Games Workshop to engage in a dialogue with us players. And with their refusal to talk with us, even going as far as shutting down their forums and Facebook-page rather than dealing with the complaints posted there, what else can we do but to vent our anger on the last few venues left to us? And so forums like WarSeer, and Dakkadakka became full of disgruntled ex-players, bemoaning how their beloved hobby was now too expensive for them, how their local store shut down, how their local community fell apart…
And that, I think, is where the negativity we’re now seeing comes from. A slight undercurrent of dissatisfaction has become a torrent of anger because Games Workshop never listened to, let alone acted on, that initial murmur of discontent.
One thing you could try is to make the whole karma system private. I’ve never been a moderator but I’ve used enough forums in my time. I find any sort of visible ranking will encourage some users to take their reputation a bit too seriously – so they’ll start to view other users as rivals/allies and will downvote/upvote accordingly.
That said, the users of this site are among the more mature I’ve come across since coming back to the hobby. This is especially noteworthy when you consider we’re all talking about games with toy soldiers.
There are some sites out there where the comments aren’t worth bothering with (naming no names). You’ll never eliminate kneejerk “[company] sucks” posts in this or any other area – take a look at comments on Android or Apple stories on technology sites.
I think BoW does a good job and, for the most part, so do its readers. Don’t let emotions running high on one story push you into a drastic change to the recipe!
There is a disconnect between game companies and their fans but I don’t ever see that changing to a degree where our voice can reach their ears. It will always be the negative comments that reach these companies but that is human nature. From my experience working retail you tend to find out that the 90% of the comments are negative but only come from 10% of the people you deal with.
That also ties in to the subject of commenters on forums; something someone posts will be seen by many, commented by few, and on the random occasion tick someone off. I’ve been on the site during the dark days of negative votes and powered through. Censorship and anonymity are key subjects for online communities, but time and time again I’ve seen great things come from the BoW crew.
Lastly if the Mountain King were to grace my doorstep I will give it a top notch paint job and showcase it to everyone on the painting forum.
I personally feel that people who comment on this site, and in many ways other war gaming sites, are some of the more mature people on the whole internet. Go onto almost any video game website, and the forums often contain “{insert company name, e.g. EA} sucks, if you buy their games, you are the DEVIL!!!” comments by the bucket load, which I have never seen any example of on this web site. People seem to respect that, while a company may make decisions they disagree with, you can still enjoy the games.
As others have said, it mainly arises on articles like the Miniwargaming one, which does stir up some feelings of disappointment, as Miniwargaming is a popular site. While you do get the occasional person saying “I don’t play 40K/WHFB for reason X”, the comments usually stay on the topic of whatever the video was about.
If any of that were to change, such as people actively putting others down because they buy GW products, or it became an epidemic within the forums, then I personally think that you should take action, such as warnings, purges etc. Until then, I wouldn’t change anything, as it is an open discussion, and people are usually just speaking their minds.
The only thing I have against the thumbs down is when someone makes a valid statement that may not be the same opinion as others they can sometimes get negged for it.
For some reason I find that annoying so I generally give them a thumbs up to get rid of it,
apart from that when someone just gets needlessly abusive and the community gives them the thumbs down. I’ve no problem with that.
On the whole though I think the over whelming majority of posters on this site are very friendly. There is a lot good humour and some very good comments and posts.
Lastly I had to collect my son from uni today so a trip to TTN was not on the cards but I do intend to visit in the not too far distant future.
If I see you at Salute I’ll say hi
The removal of the thumbs down seem to be popular, and I agree with the points already made on this regard. As to the negativity issue regarding companies and all that, I do not think that can be avoided on a free space that focuses on the hobby. Maybe you could create specific parts on the forums for this kind of discussion, so that people interested strictly on hobby discussions can avoid the negativity.
As a brazilian wargamer and backstager, I find that having a place to complain and to know the negative sides of the hobby industry can also be importante for people to decide how they will game (As when to switch to another company that gives more support for consumers and all that).
One of the merits BoW has is that it is one of the greatest international communities on the wargaming hobby, and being able to know about other places in the world that have a hard time developing the hobby and how they get over it can be really importante… You can’t overcome negativity by avoiding it.
There is alot of negativity towards GW at the moment and at times I’ve ranted about them. However the majority of us carry one playing/buying their products as one the whole they are good quality. I think that the odd wird if things are getting out of hand is probably the way forward and if that doesnt work closing the thread like in the spots the spacemarine thread.
Granted there are certain users posts that even I (probably best described as a cantancerous sod) think “oh here we go d***************l is on a rant again about the evils of GW and how beasts of war are backing them up by showing their products. It’s just the nature of the beast and you have to put up with it. The negativity does add to it because you can sometimes gain ideasor see
There is alot of negativity towards GW at the moment and at times I’ve ranted about them. However the majority of us carry one playing/buying their products as one the whole they are good quality. I think that the odd wird if things are getting out of hand is probably the way forward and if that doesnt work closing the thread like in the spots the spacemarine thread.
Granted there are certain users posts that even I (probably best described as a cantancerous Soderbergh) think “oh here we go d***************l is on a rant again about the evils of GW and how beasts of war are backing them up by showing their products. It’s just the nature of the beast and you have to put up with it. The negativity does add to it because you can sometimes gain ideas or see another system. Truth is a three edged blade. Your side, their side and reality.
I’ve never been much of a community member of anything, to be honest, but this is a community that has the potential to be amazing, especially if it grows some more.
Dropping the down-thumb might help, so I’d say its worth a try
Well you got your first thumbs up mate 😉 This is a great community 😀
– In for the giveaway! –
Relatively new to backstage, though a lurker on beasts of war for some time…
I agree that the “thumbs down” should be removed. It does nothing but to serve as a promotion vehicle for the trolls… Thumbs up is useful in terms of rewarding those who actively push to provide interesting and useful commentary. The community members who have something constructive to say, do so, and those who provide the opposite are easily ignored.
So… Thumbs down, to the “thumbs down” button….. wait, what!?!?
Hi guys,
Ok, I too think there was bound to be a backlash last week due to MWG announcement.
But remember, the policy change was just part of the reason for the online shops demise.
Also remember GW didn’t comment, so we don’t know their side of this. For instance if the policy change means more profit which is pumped back into the business to fund more releases, and therefore secures hundreds of jobs in the UK, for the lost of a couple of jobs at MWG, although its a shame, it makes perfect sence for GW. If all the people who moaned last week at GW, sign up to MWG’s vault, then Matt and Dave will be ok.I have been a member for nearly two years, and its absolutely excellent value. As for GW I hope they continue, as up to now if they hadn’t followed their own path, our hobby would be very small.
Warren, I am one of those that normally doesn’t comment, so be assured that your request has been heard.
I can see where you’re coming from with rewarding posters that significantly enhance the community, but I can also see where some people may get upset when they aren’t compensated for helping out (even though IMO that’s what we should all be doing in order to grow the hobby). If you go through with this plan, you may not want to advertise when someone is rewarded. It may cause strife where none is needed.
I can’t think of any good reason to keep the thumbs-down. Just like on Facebook, you mark something you like without causing dissention. There will always be a certain amount of negativity (this is the internet after all). I lurk on a lot of different gaming sites, and overall I’d say the forums here aren’t bad at all compared to other sites. Posters in some forums are downright hateful when posting. That doesn’t happen here, and I am quite happy with that.
woot! giveaway ;D I agree to getting rid of thumbs down, but thumbs up to .. thumbs up. I also like the idea of rewarding those who post something beneficial to the community.
Hi guys, here comes a wall of text.
The site you run is one of the best forums on the tabletop/RPG community. The articles you write are well reserched and rounded and you avoid sensationalising the issue, rather feeding us with enough facts for a rational debate and decisions to be made. This is one of the best sites to get a balance opinion from all sides without the perpetual trolling that occurs on other sites. A good, robust discussion of opinion is not a bad thing, rather it is very health in helping us understand our different perspectives and opinions from all over the planet.
I love the hobby, from card to board to wargames including RPG’s. I have played over these games since the 80’s, and they consumed much of my childhood and teen years. I have a collection of miniatures that fills the garage- around $80K worth at last estimate. I have enough scenery to cover 6 6×4 foot tables. My RPG books fill two bookcases.
Being in the hobby for so long I have watched games come and go, and I have learned to love the hobby, not the games. Miniatures can be used in multiple games, there is no reason you cannot create rules in one game for miniatures from another, it is your hobby to own, and if it is a cool mini why not use it? The games have moved in recent times to being exclusively about one company, whaterver company that is, in your area. The increase in tournament play has led to a reduction in player created, or house rules, in my travels across the my country. The tournament game is focused on the winner/loser scenario, and themed games seem to have disappeared from the scene. This is a pity, because these games are focused on fun, with balanced points values and winning/losing a secondary objective to the outcome of the game, a great story. Tournament play with it’s focus on balanced forces reduces the opportunity for house rules and player creations to be added to games. I do not say that Tournaments cannot, or are not fun, but I think too much focus is placed on them. This is part if the reason for the angst is the community.
It also must be remembered that the world economy is not doing so well for the last few years and some of our gaming brothers and sisters are doing it tough at the moment. The fact that GW have applied the screws to their customer base, reguardless of the value judgement of this behaviour, has increased the level of pain for some in the community. Hard descisions are being made, I think there was a good example of that in last weeks comments if you read the whole reply stream. One person was having a very bad time in particular. For people to overcome these issues, the need to express themselves, because without this they will simply leave the hobby, and we, as a community will diminish.
My suggestion would be to seperate the comments where possible. Have articles that cover the games, with new releases, product reviews, rules tweaks etc…..and have articles to cover the companies policies, descisions and practices. Both sides are important, as forums like this provide the best place for public discord and dessent over company decisions can be articulated, with the hope that the company pays some attention to the discussions that occur here. It is the only way we have any hope of changing company policy without sacrificing our purchases for the game, and voting with our wallet (That is a lose /lose scenario, company bust+no new game bits).
Please level the thumbs up/thumbs down function as it is. While it has the potential for abuse, from my readings on the site it mainly occurs when someone is being overtly aggressive or abusive, and is a form of community sensorship. The post remains on the site, you are just required to open the item up to read it, so it is still there for all to read, but has been sensibly reduced as it adds nothing to the discussion. I may be wrong in my assessment as I have only been reading the posts for the last few weeks.
Rewarding can take many forms. I particularly like it when the BoW team mention a topic during a show. A lot of people are attracted to these topics and I’m sure it is really rewarding for those who started these posts.
A lot of poeple invest a lot of time and energy in their hobby and it is great fun when their work is being used as a reference.
I could post links for my topics here but I won’t. Look for them anf tell me what you think if you do find them!
😉
I think I disagree with taking off the thumbs down option. Personally I find it a quick and easy way to express my annoyance (most often at flame type messages). The alternative is to actually write a contrary post. This can very quickly get into a flame war, so it seems to me that the thumbs down actually improves the behaviour of members. I think aellan’s idea is good
” I find that having a place to complain and to know the negative sides of the hobby industry can also be important”
So maybe a companies / moaning hub? ok, maybe a bit more thought needed there!
Tims post is much better then mine on the thumbs down option, and i agree with what he is saying
freedom of speech is so important (coming from someone who came of age in the Thacther era) that not being able to push a contributor into the negative allows the flow of free thinking.
Although a degree of decorum is placed on the contributor not to get his ‘jollies off’ upsetting other people.
Warren and the team thanks for another great discussion and I couldn’t agree with you more about the issues you have raised. I’ve been in this hobby for over 25 years now and I’ve seen a lot of changes. I have been following your site for some time and I liked what I have seen not only by you guys but the whole community and that is why I joined recently.
The two point I would like to raise on this is :-
1. I think one of the main problems in these types of community sites is the professional Trollers who don’t really have anything positive to say as all they want to do is get reactions out of people buy posting crap.
2. Opinions are like backsides, everyone has one. Now some people may agree or disagree with a comment being said that is their opinion. The problem with opinions is that they can come across as negative to others and some opinions should be kept to ones self. People should be able to express their opinion in a mature manner as that is what community sites are for (open discussions).
I agree with you about removing the thumbs down as I think it does become a badge of honour, also this may help stop the Trollers as well. We must all remember that Cyber Abuse should not be tolerated.
have been a back stager from pretty much day1 but must admit i don’t read that many posts.
I do not recall giving any thumbs down. I will not miss it. If I come across something negative or that bothers me, I skip it. Life is too short to hang on to the bad bits that come here and there, now and then. I do not begrudge those that are stuck on the bad bits, either. It happens.
In a public community, you will get all types. It is the bit of reality that comes in, the good with the bad. I agree that for me, Beasts of War is a place to enjoy my hobby and interests and I leave life’s negativities out of it.
As for those people that squash others, belittle, despise, ridicule or besmirch those who are different, I feel sorry for them. At some point these types must be confronted and not tolerated so BoW does need to deal with it. I cannot say that I know where that line is drawn. I would expect BoW will handle it as fair handedly as can be done. I do not envy the task.
Nor me. My criteria for a downvote is thinking the commenter is being an arse. In my experience, this is very rare on BoW.
For what it’s worth:
Short opinion? Yes to “Thumbs up” only, yes to driving positive participation through little “thank you” prizes.
Longer opinion? With GW you’ll always have to contend with strong passions. That’s a blessing and a curse. I think there is a place for discussion of GW business practices, as they can have an effect on the wargaming market as a whole. There is also a perceived disconnect between their stated goals, actions, and apparent results. Keeping that discourse at a level of civility will require some careful Mods. Your example of a lover scorned is a great way to describe how some people feel. When a discussion drops to just venting anger, it’s probably no longer healthy to keep going. It’s easy for me to say I think the BoW team is up for it (I do, hence my joining Backstage and making my first post), but I appreciate how tough it can be for you guys 🙂
“If you can’t say something nice, don’t say nothing at all” – Thumper
While we cannot prevent people from spouting vitriol like everyone’s favorite toe-tapping rabbit from Bambi suggests, I agree that eliminating the thumbs down is a step in the right direction to keep out unnecessary negativity. Keep up the great work guys, I love the Hordes coverage.
Strangely the idea of an unlike is something i’ve debated before in terms of the political system and how in many ways it would help to prevent the rise of certain extreme political parties if you were able to exchange your positive vote for a single negative vote for a party you really don’t want to win the seat in your constituency.
Naminig no political parties that would certainly prevent some with extreme policies from gaining power and also the danger of two similar parties from splitting a protest vote (there are many counters I won’t list but it’s an interesting debate).
Back on the hobby my inclination is to stear clear of discussing business decisions here, I’ve been involved in financial decision making at board level in large corporates and there is always far more involved than can be guessed from the outside. Often decisions are made because they are the ones that you can’t be critcised for even if there is a good chance the other decision might be the right one but could if not proved right attract undue criticism from investors/stakeholders.
I also think we take time away from other neglected areas of the hobby like innovative painting techniques, careers in the hobby, how people became great sculptors and how can we encourae the next generation of moddelers, painters and gamers. I would love to see the guys discuss some beautifully painted minis they’ve seen in the week and showcase some talent providing some inspiration for the rest of the day, maybe a great conversion even?
There is a lot about the hobby beyondthe latest kickstarter or GW being ‘corporate’ and it is all too easy to focus on the new or contentious and miss the beautiful and the inspiring side of the community.
Having come back to the hobby from a past without the internet, the wealth of information, inspiration access to wonderful model art (and a good paintjob or model is art) is staggering… we are all blessed to be in a time when we dont rely on a monthly magazine with minimal pictures and what our local hobby centre has to offer for our inspiration.
We are all to a degree hobbyists, not fans, not painters, not modellers, not even just gamers. We should embrace it all and not simply become jaded because things change and there are ways in which we would prefer them not to.
Happy Easter!
Guys,
I am a new Backstager and love it! I fully support the view that BOW should act as a recruiter for the whole inclusive hobby. I have been a historical gamer for over forty years and seen the hobby ‘grey’ over that period. Since discovering BOW my enthusiasm for the hobby has been reignited and it is a bad day when I do not get a dose of BOW. I am now looking at new gaming systems I would never have considered a few months ago and have visited Tabletop Nation when I am in the area. I do not want to hear negative comments about any company unless it makes their product poor quality. Comments about general marketing policies should be left to other websites where people can go to slag off such companies and/or products. The future of our hobby is at risk if we do not recruit, recruit and recruit via all mediums, rules systems and products. New gamers are far more tech savvy than me and will be aware of sites such as BOW usually before buying their first figure as their friends would have told them to check it out. If they find negativity about certain companies or products they will think twice. The best products produced by the best companies will always win out so why not let gamers make their own minds up about any drawbacks and value for money. But otherwise carry on doing the FANTASTIC job you are to inspire me and grow the hobby in all directions in this and other galaxies!!
Generally I agree with the removal of thumbs down, but also see the danger that tims highlighted of a flame war rather than simply pressing thumbs down. Say thumbs down is removed there may be a problem, in a discussion such as this where opinions are wanted, that a post gets 36 thumbs up but 100 people disagree with it and the idea looks as if it is supported (the point tangential makes).
I do think discussions of games and companies should be kept separate in the cases of reviews or product discussions. The companies are still part of our hobby and I believe there is a place on BOW to discuss what they are doing or trying to do, whether positive or negative. This place may be in the news section and forum threads if BOW want to keep all their videos about gaming rather than company decisions.
I do wonder if GW bashing is part of the hobby, not that I’m defending their company decisions.
Enjoying BOW after being out of the hobby for 12 years (when GW would have a 3 for 2 sale when opening a store and a mega nob cost a fiver). I’ve got into mercs and have been trying to glue and paint the GW minis that have been in the loft for so long.
Listen up young ‘uns, I remember when five Orks cost £2.50 lol.
I understand the potential flame war issue with removing the thumbs down option though my feeling is that if someone wanted to start a flame war they’d do it regardless of the presence of the thumbs down option. I think it’d be much more likely that people who would have “thumbs-downed” will now just ignore it. If that proves to be wrong then it can always be brought back.
That is because we’re old redben.
I agree with removing the thumbs down ability. Looking at it another way, one man’s trolling comment is another man’s reasoned argument, and why should I force mine on some one else. If it truly is trolling to get people riled up, then perhaps a stronger Mod focus might be needed in, potentially, volatile topics.
When it comes to a companies business practises, I think these are fair game for discussion, both my the BoW team, and by the members. I think the issue is that, in general, GW is the only company to really make questionable business decisions that are effecting the hobby. I think that the lack of communication from GW on their reasons why hurts them, and causes more speculation. Most other companies would engage with the community to explain their reasons, and (hopefully) mitigate the bad feelings.
Anyway, keep up the good work. Been a Backstage member since the start and haven’t regretted it yet.
There is a reason why that seems to be the case and it’s because for all those other companies we are their target audience, but for GW we’re not and so they don’t cater to us. This is the type of area where discussion of GW’s business practices has the potential to be constructive.
I am fairly new to backstage and think it is worth every penny. Keep up the good work guys.
I think you should continue your coverage of the way these companies behave as it is relevant to our hobby. (Although GW’s behaviour is unlikely to prevent me buying their models). I also think the forum separation idea mentioned above is a good one as then it is less likely to crop up in gaming forums if people are given an outlet. This could hopefully limit people being scared off who are new to the hobby as that isn’t good for anyone.
Happy Easter guys and keep up the awesome work i am relitively new to Hordes and have loved the coverage Mike and Kev are brilliant.
P.S have just started trollbloods and would love that mountain king. That model and the Hunters Grim are the reasons i chose trolls as my faction.
i think removing the thumbs down is a great idea. i am new to backstage and have to say the content is great. i think the problem is that the more something grows and the larger it becomes the more politics is involved its natural unfortunately. i think the best way of dealing with this is to have a separate area on bow weather its videos or blogs that discusses what goes on in companies both positive and negative. so that people who are interested can get the information and those who are not can avoid it. but i do think its important that we as a community can here of what companies are doing because 4 or 5 years ago we didn’t here as much about companies, there wasn’t as much media coverage as there is now for the hobby. Also maybe company’s like gw will be more careful in there decisions. the more ears and eyes watching and listening the less a company can get away with and on the other edge of the sword the more ears and eyes watching and listening the more good stuff a company does the faster it will flourish.
I think all the ideas in this video will help the community, I enjoy the videos put out by you guys on beasts of war and there are not many company’s the post as regularly as you guys do. I do not comment as I think that the comments can quickly get away from the point which is the hobby, maybe every now and then the beasts of war team could put there opinions on the GW for example into a separate video and the discussion about there business choices could take place there? And hopefully this will somewhat separate the hate for company’s like GW and the love of the hoody. Because its your hoody and spare time so it’s what you make of it.
Hi guys. First I wanna say thanks for all the great stuff! That’s for all the weekenders, the backstage, the reviews and all the other amazing stuff you guys do. As for the negative GW thing well…… The only thing I really know for definite is how I feel about it and how it effects me! So I have to say I agree with the general view of Warren and the team. My personnel feeling are that they are going the wrong way at the moment. I was a Dark Angel player and following the new Codex I no longer play 40k at all. This is really down to the general ruining of the DA codex! That my opinion! Right or wrong but its mine! I still buy odds and ends of GW items for Commission work only! I paint a little for money!
I don’t like the recent things! That GW have done changes to shop policy’s, I used to spend the odd day painting and socialising, gaming too, in my local GW store. Not anymore! So what I’ve done is looked elsewhere and I’ve found a plethora of other great games that don’t want to rape my wallet for me to play!
So Beast of War for me keep up the good work, point out the good and the bad where you see it! GW have lost me for the moment. I think to be fair they are preparing to sell the business hence the changes! I just hope that if they do the new owners are hobby as well as business friendly!
Sorry guys appear to be rambling a little, my point is enjoy the hobby! Enjoy Beasts of War! Point out the negatives and the positives where we find them!
Cheers
Tonka
Well that was a snappy tomato kick to the mid section,
I think when you start trying to monitor what is approved and what is forever forsaken here, you totally miss a few key elements.
One is when typing in a text box and trying to communicate to others from a far. If you try to relate something that is funny to you whether it be an insult or whatever. Others may not have the same sense of humor.
You add all the Nations of people that visit here the heat really turns up.
I guess it is impossible to see me smiling or laughing while typing, I don’t consider this trolling this is just thinking of something that is very funny and sharing it.
Stand up comics have been doing this for years and making a living at it. Why is it a issue here, I guess maybe people can not get past the part of being the brunt of a joke. I dunno
One problem I have with people here is they are hyper sensitive and all wound up, like all the time which is a very crappy state of mind in my opinion.
Be that as it may-
I can only say in my defense is that I have turned my playful nature down and trying to fit in, I hope it works, although it is quite vanilla to me and not much fun, chances are slim
My friends here including family love my jokes or insults and get rather cagey if I don’t throw a couple here and there…
If this place was to turn towards a 1984 state of operation I am pretty sure I would quietly slip away unannounced rather quickly.
There would be no separation from here and all the other web sites. I feel everyone should have a right to speak there mind regardless of whether we all agree or not. We are all gamers and should remain tolerant if at all possible based on the fact we are all at different places.
I shudder at the day when a bunch of clipped chaps start to legalize those opinions that are not popular or in a taste or nature that has a seal of approval of some sort…
If that day ever comes BoW staff you will have arrived and become just another cookie cutter forum with no real difference from the rest.
As far as the little ones coming here have you watched public television lately ?
The years of decay on that thing is way over the top.
Nothing here could ever compare to that.
This place is unique for allowing all to speak within our hobby, it would be horrible if that ever changed
I think I will break from here for a bit and reflect
I rarely play games as I’m more of a model painter and thats just fine with me. As for people that bad mouth some company, some degree may very well be warranted. People have strong feelings and its sometimes hard to see things from the other side of the fence.
As for the karma system… I support it. Now some might say I’m biased due to me having a rather high karma, but I have dedicated much time into posting my thoughts and trying to add life and positive feedback to all the forums and news articles. If someone likes what someone says or agrees with the view they state why not show your support. I for one have thumbed up even people that I disagree with just because I fined they bring something new from another angle in a well thought out way. Yes the negative karma can be bad sometimes just wrong. I have seen and experienced sometimes someone just thumbing down everyone that gives accolades to a new game. I tend to just thumb them all up so the negative is gone, minus myself of corse.
Thumbs up to that one however I would find it very hard to give any sort of thumbs up to anybody that is having a pointless rant. I do also agree on thumbing up the comments you dont agree on because of their merit. sometimes put in comments that I personally dont really agree on just to stir the the pot up a little.
By the way, the mountain king sounds great.
Guys, interesting one today. I suppose it makes sense, following on the heels of last week.
I don’t often spend much time on the forums, and truthfully, the kind of behaviour that you mention here is exactly why. I’m not saying that the BOW forums are bad, and in retrospect I have to say that they aren’t. But, I learned a very long time ago that if I wanted to enjoy my game/hobby/pursuit, etc.. that cardinal rule 1 was to “avoid forums unless absolutely necessary.”
A bit of background, for what it’s worth. I first discovered game-related forums many years ago when Everquest came out. Yeah, I started up playing that and thought that communicating with others who also played would help me find things about the game I enjoyed. Instead, I found myself becoming disillusioned with the game, and irritated at the little annoyances that, until that point, I never really had noticed before. See, I played Evercrack probably in the way the designers wanted, I explored the world; adventured, etc. The Levelling treadmill wasn’t something I noticed, I just went from quest to quest, zone to zone, exploring, interacting, etc. The more time I spent on the forums, the more the negativity swirled. etc.
I moved on to DArk age of Camelot, only this time with my small core of good “R/l” friends. The same thing: I enjoyed the game immensely until the forums happened. Only this time, I had my friend, we’ll call him “Fred,” who practically LIVED on the forums. I saw him get grumpier and grumpier as time went forward. He kept deleting and restarting new characters because “the forums” said this is how you get “the best.” etc.
When DAOC died off and we moved on to other games, I saw the same pattern. But it was more than in the games. I participate in a re-enactment hobby as well(With the same friends), and there are a few “discussion groups” here and about regarding the hobby, the rules, etc. I see the exact same pattern.
I know, many will say that Online games are different from 40K, (or the rest of the types of games BOW covers) and I disagree. Your statement that the game is independent of the company doesn’t fly exactly the same for the wargames with constant updates as it does for a boxed game like, for instance, Monopoly. The rules change. The world changes. The “playing field” is under constant revision. All games rely on the ability to bring together people with the same set of rules, the same expectations, so they can all be on the same page regarding “rules of the game” when they’re engaged in the hobby. My mates and I have found that having “house rules” creates conflict when we go out in the world, by changing expectations for how things are done. It’s like the difference between the Cheeze players and the “fluff” players. Me, I play fluff, having been a Dark Eldar player since they were in White Dorf back ..a while ago.. and an Inquisition player. There are others who play certain factions because they’re the best way to win the game. I spend a lot of time losing, but I still have fun. I get to play with my toy soldiers. But, it should be remembered that many players take ownership of their “faction,” and they get upset when that faction is placed at a disadvantage. The game is dynamic, like an online game. The world of 40K, or GW in general, or any other game that updates factions, rules, etc., will have that same response.
I have found, over the last fifteen or so years, that the surest way to destroy the happy of a hobby for me, is to remove the in-person elements, and go spend time on “the forums.” I poke my head in on Dakka now and again to see what the “incoming rumors” are, or to (Rarely) get critique on some creative bit of modelling. For the most part, the discussions are the typical stupidity on the level of the “nuh – uh! did not!” kindergarden playground. Mutual respect and acceptance that one sees more often in the in-person encounters rarely exists. Seriously, I see the faceyspacey as the “forums” for life! So, I spend a lot of time “not” on the faceyspacey for the same reason.
With that said, I think BOW is somewhat different due to your format. Your videos are the primary interaction between yourselves and your viewers, and I think that may lend a bit more of a reminder that the folks on the other end are people. Your forums, now that I have taken a moment to actually spend some time glancing through them this morning, are different than many.
I don’t know that the down-thumb removal will make more of a difference, or if you might just want to indentify a code of conduct that is both permissive and respectful. Opinions don’t have to be regulated so much as the method of sharing them, if you follow?
I don’t have an easy answer, and I don’t think there IS an easy answer. Certainly not one that doesn’t require a hefty investment of time and energy moderating. I dunno, guys, maybe I’m just too cynical. At any rate, if you feel that removing the down-thumb is a good thing, I give the suggestion a thumbs-up. : ) If I have some epiphany, I’ll send it to you. Forums are hard. Thank you, guys, for all that you do, and for being willing to deal with this stuff. It does make the hobby better for all of us.
Truth be told, this has me torn. Thumbs up/thumbs down??
Could we instead have a picture of Daryl’s Sanguinor as the negative vote.
That would get the point across. Stop being a dick, or I’ll send a large gay icon your way!
😀
Not that I’ve got anything against gays! :-O
I think you guys are right in that having a thumbs down encourages, in some cases, the wrong thing. You want to reward good behavior while ignoring bad as best you can.
I have always thought a thresholding system like the one employed on Slashdot is a fairly good idea. If you allow users to select what threshold of comments they want to see, it would actively encourage comments that promote healthy discussion while effectively ignoring the bad. Granted that’s a bit harder here as there is no upper limit to karma and it’s a new widget to put in place, but it might accomplish your goals.
Another idea is to cap the thumbs down to just -1. If you have more negative votes than positive, your comment is greyed out.
With respect to the GW stuff, I actually have the expectation that you guys will report on the goings on in the industry and provide a commentary on it as you have breadth of knowledge on “the hobby” that I just don’t have. You guys (with the community) can provide context to a news clip I read and that, to me, is invaluable.
The particular issue with GW is that it seems to be the elephant in the room (with all the fan boyism that implies) and, therefore, one’s love or hate of it seems to be something of a religious argument. It’s a bit of an issue on where to draw the line.
I haven’t completely thought this through, but it would seem to me that you should try your best to provide venues to discuss GW as a company and GW as a hobby. If you guys have an epidemic of negativity during a GW-Themed week, then it’s time to break out the ban hammer. If, on the other hand, there is an article/forum/post that specifically discusses the practices of GW (or any company, for that matter), that’s the venue for one’s frustration/adoration (assuming one doesn’t get offensive/threatening).
Finally, as a relatively new backstager (and new to the site in general), I’d just like to say you guys are doing great work. My only complaint is that you guys make such compelling arguments for various games, that my time (and my wallet) just can’t keep up.
To conclude as I finish my thoughts,
The out cries heard on this forum and else where on the net by thousands of gamers who have spent countless amounts of time and money on GW games. Are not unfounded to say the least, One of those gamers and hobbyist being myself.
The old school and long time players do feel betrayed on a large number of different levels.
It is only natural for this sentiment, to both ring true and from time to time go a bit over…
No amount policing the input on the forums will correct this. So it would only be self destructive by the staff itself to try and correct that.
Because the out cries are founded in real emotion
As far as feeling warm and fuzzy for the new player who embarks on the same journey to meet the same end as we have.
I wish I would of known then what I know now, I promise you I would of not started this hobby with 40k or any other GW product.
This opinion I come by honestly, Sure at times we all get caught in the mosh but, such as life…
It would be difficult for the average Joe to post if he was suspect of whether he would be censored or not.
So whether or not this was the intent by BoW or not would not really matter. Because this would be how this forum would be looked upon in the long run.
The moment you start yanking replies this would be the census over all.
“Only lap dogs need reply”
I know this is not what you guys want either
Just my thoughts after breaking for a bit,
Trying to be as objective and honest as possible regardless of feeling the burn due to last week.
The haters are always going to hate, I don’t think there is anything we can do to stop them, but I like your idea of spot prizes and positive reinforcement.
The hater will always take any chance they can to spout there views but those that love ther stuff will just carry on and not say anything and so by encouraging them to say there piece we will get a more balanced view.
Look away Dixieland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMucsrsg2L0
I think this is the problem. We’re punching people together as haters. They’re aren’t haters. Their people who feel aggrieved because of the way the company treats their loyalty. Were the people who didn’t like the PP horses and multiple sculptors in the packs haters? No they were people giving their opinion on something they may spend money on. Therefore entitled to have an opinion the same as people who are pissed off with Gw are.
Sorry this was supposed to be a Perry to the post above you. Stupid phone.
hello BOW
And hello to ll the gamers out there that like gw or not. they are a good plastic making company, the minatures are great. but their trading polacy are nuts. anyway let us just put the bad sideeffect asaid and see that it is some gamers that spread negativity on this minature making games. take the finecast. if gw had launch an figurerine in the WD so the comunity could spoken of it instead of spreading out that finecast are the worst thing they ever made. oki some are poor. but the detail on them are awsome. and this comes back to the army tau too. why do gamer out ther hate them? because they are good in the right person hands or is it so that it is an army that hide in cover and shoot things down and stay behind the lines that anoy people? look at dark eldar and nercrons, they hold the game for 8 great years, even eldar that still are on 4 edition wipe tables even to day. . just that they are more tactical used then cheesy blood angel and vannillla space marines, that gamer also dont like. but tau are good in the right hands. even seen necron wiped blood angel back in 5th edition. so pls for gaming sake, dont hate tau because they are old:
ps sorry for bad typing.
I agree with most thumbing down does stop trolls, if they get too out of hand just ban them completely, as in “Bye, Bye Stupid!”
Oh and the mountain king is cool.
Negativity has a tendancy to influence alot more people then positivity. I think, for the good of the hobby and the community, that we the players/painters/geeks should think about what we post in forums more. Even though the urge to rage rant against something is a strong one, sleeping on the rant before posting often leads to a more constructive post.
And if you cant add anything constructive to an issue, best to let the rage post die before it hits your keyboard. Vent to your mates in private instead, or yell at the cat….
If a certain game/company has you up in arms, the best thing one can do is to stop buying said product(s). Voting with your wallet is muchh more effective then rage posting on a forum.
And if all else fails remeber that; It could always be worse….
Wil Wheaton was very still and quiet during this video which is very unusual for him. 🙂
Maybe he was Jetlagged?
I believe the thumbs down button does not have a true function and as you say encourages trolling for the sake of getting negative rating, elimination is not a bad thing, then again I am biased against “karma” system, From personal experience though, its elimination does stop excessive trolling.
Now @warzan
Quite brave of you to open the bag and let the winds of Aeolus roam, its a tough one and one that can be seen in a myriad of colours and viewpoints.
Personally I believe a game is inseparable from the company producing it and one should not trick themselves in separating them, as your interview with Rick Priestly showed a company can transform the design team to a push tool for the marketing department, if nothing else this illustrates how the game can be ruined by the company and cannot be separated, on more extreme cases a company can affect other companies and their games either by aggressively closing local game stores with their policies or legal battles, so even if one does not interact directly with the company and their games, can be affected by them.
Now you come to GW, a behemoth of the industry left unchallenged for way to long time to have market dominance and dictate the rules, a company with a history of been a legal bully and strong-arming local game stores either to submission or to extinction, legally threatening fun sites of their products, even your channel has been impacted twice by them, how can you expect people especially seasoned wargamers to not feel bitter about them?
Separating a product from the company has many dangers, in the extreme if the product is good, but the companies practices are at best questionable, you support a company that impacts negatively the genre, especially crucial in niche markets, on a more grounded approach the product is affected by the companies decisions and if one is against the companies decisions will be against the product, a wargame has great investment, both monetary but more importantly time investment, once a company strategy is to make obsolete whatever the customer has bought and painted have in order to force the customer to buy more you will have people that are disillusioned and bitter about it and will express it since what they once loved is turning into something they do not like and the investment in it is massive, should their voice be muffled in order to have only happy comments? is it crucial to only represent the bright side of things and kill the negative side even if it can on occasion eclipse the bright side?
Yes, you are right there is no objectivity and I personally would not expect from you to “boycott GW” or express a more “negative” view than the one you already have (quite bravely I may add) expressed, GW is after all the behemoth and coverage of their games does produce much needed traffic and only a fool would expect from a company to cut them off at this point, but I think that moderating the negativity against their products is a bad idea, as you say half the job is the user participation, true some want to go and see only happy bright comments about their favorite products, but others want to express their own opinion that may not be bright.
Bringing the recent TAU release (of which you were not allowed to show in advance even in backstage) I personally expressed a negative opinion, for me GW is a big company with ample resources and talent, I feel the fact they didn’t grasp the opportunity to revamp the battlesuits in ether the excellent Robert Cirilos concept art, or at least the forgeworld already designed parts and re-release the same decade+ old problematic suits in a bundled box at the same price you would get them before minus 4 drones, cheap, should I withhold my opinion when I was deeply disappointed by this, I was truly expecting them, naively, to grasp the opportunity and do it and despite my years of abandonment of GW, if the kits were good, despite the price buy a few.
I do believe correctly negative comments and not negative for the sake of it are as valid as positive comments and should not be discarded for the sake of a brighter picture and if they overwhelm the bright side, maybe there is a problem there, GW’s response was to cut the negative criticism, no forums, no facebook, no talk to the press, only PR via the official magazine and the official you tube channel were on both occasions there can be no comments, I do not think your channel which is a news site and a community hub should follow their example of closing their ears and muffling the negativity.
All the above while directed to GW are equal to all wargames and the companies behind them, I cannot expect any system, even the ones I do hold dear to be without somebody expressing negative comments about them, I feel that even if I disagree with them, they have the right to express it.
Sorry in advance for the wall of text and the unstructured nature of it.
I agree with what seems to be pretty much everybody else in saying that I won’t miss the thumbs down.
Recently I’ve tried to get more involved in the community here (I made a New Years resolution to get into the hobby more in general) and I’ve been a backstager for a few months now. I think the community is great here, there are a couple of people who rub others up the wrong way but that’s life and you’ll never be able to fully eradicate them from the site.
Another suggestion mentioned that I think would help minimise it is if another thread is opened with angry ranting, point the person to a thread that’s already open and close theirs. At least then you can have all the hate and arguments in one place
I must say though that the fact you’ve reached out to us backstagers (at least in the first instance) to discuss this displays the BoW care for their community. There are few other websites (if any) that I’ve known to do it and for that I thank you greatly.
Im thinking a lot about the possibility of having a thread or group specifically to is cuss companies.
I even thought about ‘a tread of hate’ lol
However here are my concerns…
1) were almost inviting people to openly criticise companies, thus possibly opening a vicious circle of ‘unenjoyment’ or those who participate.
2) A tread of hate could very quickly set the wrong expectation and gradually infect the rest of the site (we end up as the frothers – and the world already has the frothers for that lol)
I agree that setting up a specific area for bashing would not be a good idea. However trying to shut down individual threads that pop up could be construed as Nazi-esque control over the forums, no matter how good it is for the community, and be seen as you guys being GW lovers (which I’m sure you’re used to by now). Also it would create a lot of work for your moderators.
I’d hope that most people would just ignore a specific hate thread if they didn’t want to get involved. I know I’ve made the mistake of trying to bring reason to such threads before and I’ve learned now 😛
I’m sure whatever you decide on will work fine, I can’t remember you guys getting it wrong before.
I don’t think that a “tread of hate” is a good idea. Neither is removing the thumb down option… We’re all fellow gamers here and the recent events had all the elements for a mass reaction. On Bow, these things don’t happen everyday.
I think that poeple should be mature about it. As I wrote earlier, if I don’t want to read bad stuff against a particular company, I just ignore topics of this kind and go to the ones I’m interested in. But as a lot of folks mentioned, if I’m about to start collecting toy soldiers and invest in a particular system, I wan’t to know what poeple think of it.
I’m trying to find other games to play at the moment. And, apart from the look and feel of the games, what I do Iook at is the initial investment and the amount of time and money I’ll have to spend to keep the game enjoyable on the long run.
I must admit that I invest a lot more in «all-in-one-box» games these days. I find it easier to get poeple to play with me as they don’t need to invest themselves to play (And you’re not stuck with unusable stuff if you don’t find partners).
Rather than setting up the “Bitch about GW in here” thread, look out for common topics of discussion and direct them all to one thread. Some will be ongoing issues, such as pricing. Set up a “GW pricing” thread and have all discussion about it there. That way, anyone who has no interest in the topic can easily ignore it and whenever it becomes a hot topic, such as when they do the price hikes, it’ll spike one thread rather than spawn numerous individual threads. By the same token, when an individual event sparks discussion, such as the recent change to North American terms & conditions, set up one thread and direct all discussion there.
With regards to your video content, I wouldn’t advise recording content purely to deal with issues like this and it does force them front and centre. I would even go as far as to say don’t mention it at all and leave it to forum discussions. If you feel something is so important that you can’t ignore it, then just mention it briefly. In the case of the recent North American changes, just give it 30 seconds or so at the start of a show to get it out of the way.
I personally like the idea of a thread of hate for people to vent out their frustration , if it helps people get over their frustration and get back to gaming. The biggest concern i would have is keeping it from spilling over into other area of the forums
It might be an idea for BoW to set a couple of the community members as moderators who can close duplicate ‘hate’ threads and politely point said thread starter towards one that already exists. This then takes most of the work load off the BoW guys (you’d probably need to keep an eye on the moderators and ensure they’re not going all Horus-like and power mad) to keep on producing the content that we’re all here to consume. It also keeps the hate in a place for those who hate and prevents it spreading elsewhere.
The last thing you want a new user on the site to do is look at the homepage and just see “[Insert company name here] SUCK” and so on in the forum links on the right hand side.
Following the new trade update from Games Workshop, I have noticed increasing negativity towards GW on the forums and on videos. Though this negative reaction is understandable, I really hope that what GW decides to do in the business world of tabletop gaming doesn’t affect the coverage of GW games themselves.
I am a huge Warhammer 40K fan and I visit BoW specifically to watch 40K content. My concern is that all the negative posting will provoke an adverse reaction from the producers/writers of BoW and that GW games will get less coverage than they previously did. This would be a really shame as though GW may not run their business in the fairest manner, they do have some great games, fantastic miniatures and probably the best background and fluff available.
Regarding the thumbs up/ thumbs down tool, I think that promoting negativity towards community members isn’t a good idea. Maybe thumbs down should be removed.
Thmmmmmm, an interesting point you put across BOW and its an idea that for once, I would like to give my thoughts on. First of all I believe that the “Thumbs down” button should be removed, end of. I think it imparts far too much negativity to a discussion, by people thumbing down valid and sometimes reasoned opinions if they differ with their own. I agree with your point that the community should regulate itself, but I feel that the thumbs up button is more than enough for such a job.
Now Im sad to say that I do disagree with a lot of these good people. I feel that it is good that a community can criticize a certain company for their actions, it means that people have somewhere to share their pain or joy over a company, with many like minded individuals. Now of course with such allowance of criticism does come the hard bitten radicals on both sides, those that we all know who froth at the mouth and say that the company is god like or the spawn of satan.
But I feel now we are in this modern age that people have a right to talk about their love or hatred of a company and as I remember Warren said a number videos back (Don’t ask me to remember which one x) ) that the community seems to turn on itself when some companies (mainly GW) does something that the community disagrees with. I feel that this keeps the community alive and healthly, for if we just continually agreed with any decision that the company made and did not publicise and alert people of its dangers then in my opinion its not a community, but a following. That we are just mindless sheep plodding along after the shepard, being led into the meat grinder.
Well thats my two cents about the topic.
Regards to all
Joe
There is a valid reason for having the thumbs down, because it reduces the amount of actual arguments and flame wars on the board. Better someone clicks a thumbs down rather than call someone a w£%@$r. However. We all know that human nature will still mean there are individuals who’ll use it for cyber bullying so I had to take it off the board I run too so I do sympathise. I do think it sad that someone gets so worked up over a few anonymous eejits though. It’s just the interweb superhighnet. Nobody dies of thumbs down.
Mike
Just catching up on BoW videos after my long weekend. Firstly it was great to be able to be able to meet a few of you on Saturday night (hope the Orange overalls didn’t smell too much like a race track) and we’ll never mention Bishops again eh Warren!!
Regarding what you’ve bought up here, Thumbs up for the removal of thumbs down.
I’ve been a Backstager since I found the site, but have never really gotten into regular posting and in a lot of respects that is linked to negativity. I’m a member of quite a few gaming forums (as most of us are I’m sure) and some I’ll never post on as they appear to only harbour those that want to be disparaging and put others down for what is after all THEIR OPINION and so can never be wrong. While BoW is one of the best due to the wide range of systems covered, there is still sometimes (and certainly not all the time) the smell of negativity and so I have stayed away from that aspect of the community, I’m currently more of a reader rather than a writer. Now I’m big enough, certainly ugly enough and definitely old enough to not really give a rat’s arse if others may disagree with my opinion (it is obviously their opinion) and if the response is in furtherance of the wider discussion then all well and good, but negativity just for the sake of it….no thanks. So I’ll try to be more a writer in future and in the furtherance of the discussions I’ll voice my opinion to the community rather than just to myself.
I’m glad there was no mention of you NOT covering the wider issues affecting our hobby, you currently do that in a very unbiased manner and I hope that you continue to do so.
On the subject of spot prizes, personally I’d say no to an “advertised” thing, it could simply seem like you are trying to buy a community, certainly if you feel that someone is deserving then reward them how you see fit, but I’d not make anything of it….you also run the risk of people posting to get a reward and then what happens if they feel they deserve on and you don’t.
Sorry for rambling on, I’ll sign off by saying that BoW is one of my most regularly visited sites and will continue to be so, most of that is down to you guys, your enthusiasm is infections and now having met you certainly not just for the camera’s. Having the venue partnership with Tabletop Nation I see as an asset for you both and I’m sure that things will continue to go from strength to strength. I hope that I can arrange to get a few of my club members out of Carmarthen to come and sample on of the event’s you’ve got lined up – I’ve already had discussions with some when they saw my Bookface check-ins over the weekend.
i love this place and wished i had more time here
there are things i like and dislike about the industry in general.
but there is a lot of fun to be had out there i actually just like painting minis and thats my thing .
its a community with lots of different people with different interests
that you guys have created here and you should be very proud of it.
if a negative comment is put in here i think that is ok if the news is negative
however there are certain things that maybe we should actually try to be a bit more grown up about and not try to be judge jury and executioner on.
as lets face it if it was not for bow giving us the opportunity to have our say maybe we may not even say it .
as for the thumbs up thumbs down never even thought about giving someone a thumbs down.
life is for living and thankyou beasts of war for helping us enjoy living it
im not the greatest with words or righting down what i think so i do not post much
so i hope this does not come across as goble de gook 🙂
Look I think you guys are missing the boat here,
Most of us are married and with children.
Women are like” love you long time” until you marry them and have kids.
Then low and behold they turn into bitches and your lucky, if you even get a whiff let alone
any loving.
You go to work and your boss is a lil two faced back stabbing bitch that you would love to tune up one day.
However jobs are hard to come by now a days, and there are laws in place that protect people like that from a good ass kicking.
So why would anybody want to pick up a hobby where everyone is always bitching. I got that and we need to turn it down however I don’t believe its the gamers fault totally. If things were different and we didn’t see all these vulgar power moves. I promise you people would be content and the hobby would be thriving.
However that is not the case and ask yourself why,
Table top gaming has faced many woes in the short life span it has been out.
video games – did hit it hard but people did turn back to table top due to the fact there is no imagination required. Everything is done for you in the digital world,
GW will continue to do what they do I don’t think anyone can convince them of anything.
Maybe we should focus as a community in other directions. We just had a Privateer Press week. Nobody cried foul once, and the responses were huge and favorable.
I honestly don’t want to see GW fail However I would like to see another game maker reach out and make a big enough impact on our hobby. To make GW stop and take notice.
I think our hobby is big enough to also survive mutiny from within I.E. (GW) I think if we shifted to more than just boot licking GW for what they did create. To a wider stretch across the whole hobby, kick starter, mantic, Privateer Press ETC…
Somebody will rise up to equal GW in both sales and quality to the point where it creates a check and balance within the hobby itself. A solid neck to neck race for the top between rival game makers is healthy and rewarding for all involved including consumer.
People would be too busy enjoying the benefit of a knock down drag out between game makers to complain about anything.
As far as that goes game makers that are throwing down with each other benefit as well. Because it forces them to keep improving the product line they have created.
Right now you have one big bully that pretty much owns the block and all the pissing and moaning will not slow down til another game maker goes for that sweet spot and then its off to the races.
All I can do is refrain from posting about things within the hobby that upsets me. After all it falls on deaf ears any way. I don’t want to quit the hobby so I have no choice but remain quiet on a number of issues.
Eh, will put blood angels, orks and necrons on shelf in closet. I need to focus on things within the hobby that inspires me not piss me off. hopefully I can pull them out again one day. Just cant sell them have to much invested in them…
I agree with removing the thumbs down option. Whilst there are valid reasons to leave the thumbs down (for inflammatory posts), I believe that only reinforcing positive posts is best. The negative stuff will get left behind.
On another note I’m looking forward to more Hordes vids. I’ve been slowly collecting the minis for a few years and these vids are finally giving me the motivation to try gaming!
I\I’m relatively new member to the community and have been more of a consumer of the content then a participant in the discussion thus far. I had dropped out of wargaming after my local GW store closed its doors and seeing on the table and tabletop on geek and sundry inspired me to start my own gaming group for warhammer 40k. and I’ve managed to get a group of 10 or so folks to come on a weekly basis and get people really into playing 40k. I don’t many of them would ever actually purchase build and paint models but I’ve been going nuts and made 4 6×4 tables to accommodate the group with more then enough terrain bits and seriously considering the idea of opening a wargamming/comic store with lots of play space and struggling with how to make it profitable enough to be a stable enough income for me to devote my time to it. I don’t live in a super well populated area and the nearest independent retailer is a good hour drive away.
but none of that is really pertinent to the discussion at hand. I’m kind of on the fence about not having a thumbs down button for comments sometimes you see a really bad comment and you really feel like you need to thumbs it down. how often do you see comments on facebook like “I would kill to be able to dislike this” but sensibly it is a reasonable idea to remove the button especially if you have people being harassed with downvotes by a group or every single post involving a certain subject is getting disliked simply for being pro that subject. In my limited dealing with the community I haven’t seen an overabundance of hatred for any one subject but a lot of reasoned argument allowing players to rationalize and work out there frustration with GW in this case, and I’ve seen the same kind of negativity in some of the video especially dark angels, chaos space marine, and the psychic power videos, where the host went through and just say this is rubbish that’s rubbish the whole thing isn’t worth taking go play space wolves/blood angels and if anything i would like to see a lessening of that negativity then the commentators negativity. Though i am not really complaining i still find both the videos and the commentators highly informative and helpful in understanding the nuances of the rules and becoming a better wargamer. If anything has expanded my interest in gaming and opened to the idea of systems besides 40k its been warren’s input, Warren made the mercs games fascinating to the point i printed the mercs quick start out and me and my friends played dozens of games of it to try it out and are looking at collecting the whole range to add to our collection.
On the other hand the idea of recognizing and awarding people who contribute positively to the community I am behind 110%. That kind of community management truly has no way of backfiring it is only going to get people to more often positively contribute to the community.
My apologies for the wall of text. Didn’t mean to ramble on anywhere near so long >.<
I have been a backstager for a while and until now have never posted on a topic, this site for me is a major touchstone for staying connected to the hobby. I work very unsociable hours and have a exteremely hectic home life leaving little to no time for gaming. So its important for me to be able to come here and watch the content and browse the forums to still feel like a gamer. Nothing is more off putting for me than seeing the hobby I miss so much tearing itself up over the internet, the net provides so much oppurtuinty to shape and grow this hobby and it saddens me when its instead used for petty squabbles and negativity. That said there should always be room for well thought out and considered criticism. I strongly believe that .
We may not be able to control the actions of others but we can choose how we respond to them and any attempt by site admin or moderators to encourage that can only be a good thing.
Damn away for a week of gaming and my phone won’t Play the video, looks like good episode from the discussion. Oh well double Xlbs next week 🙂 mountain king is truly an awesome model.
Like most here I agree with the removal of thumbs down.
These are my thoughts and may have been covered in previous comments but I do not have the time to read through them all!
It is always easy to be negative and sometimes down right rude to people over the internet. Like text messages and forums, some people can miss interpret what people are actually saying and they are somewhat impersonal, in my opinion. Somethings can be said as a joke and taken another way etc. It very much depends on context and wording of a post.
With that in mind it is even easier for people to “thumbs down” as it requires minimal thought and just a mere click of a mouse.
It is very easy for people to “bully” people out of the community just because there opinion (thoughts) do not conform to theirs.
Now I agree with people having their own opinion and do not, in anyway, wish for that to be removed. With the removal of the thumbs down it will require some thought and a reply post to air differences. A little more effort than clicking thumbs down.
Thumbs down to me reminds me of Vicky Pollard! No cohesive response just “shut up”. Can you imagine having a conversation with someone like Vicky Pollard?
Someone once told me if you cant saying anything positive then don’t say anything at all.
Now I believe that the war gaming community is probably one of the friendliest and sensible on the tinterweb. I use to play shooting games competitively online and at lans and the mentality can be completely different with a lot of derogatory comments being passed around frequently. I don’t find tabletop gaming to anything close to that. Of cause you have the odd person around and that will never change. But 99.9% of people I have met in person and elsewhere have been spot on and the love of miniature gaming always gives you something to talk about!
Make love not war! (unless its tabletop, then its on!) 🙂
+1 to removing the down thumb – others have said it better than I could 🙂
Difficult re separating a game from the company, as you can see in many fields how unethical business decisions do then make it unethical to buy the product. However, most of the negativity towards gw generally comes back in some way to the idea that they’re just after money. No one makes a big deal about gw or anyone else contracting manufacturing overseas and the social and environmental impact of this… And neither am I except to say it’s a tough call where to draw the line on dislike of any company…
… Perhaps a better question is how is a given commenter effecting people’s enjoyment of the site – reasoned argument is fine but mindless heckling is a nuisance 😉
2c
“… Perhaps a better question is how is a given commenter effecting people’s enjoyment of the site – reasoned argument is fine but mindless heckling is a nuisance”
+1 to this
I think this in one sentence nails my thoughts (discomfort) on the whole issue.
The internet is shrouded in “trolls” and nuisance posters. Its just a fact of faceless interaction.
I don’t think there is any major issues with in the beast of war community.
I generally find a community site is a representation of the face/or faces of the said community. The beast of war staff persona and character will undoubtedly be echoed throughout the community. If it is the case I do not think there is too much to worry about as you guys are good mediators in the hobby and do not favor one product over another. Perhaps not the case for Ming (justin) 😛 but that’s just his DNA, but Flash and Prince Vultan will sort that out one day 😛 poor bloke gets a lot of stick so might as well join in!
In short keep up the good work.
I think the one of the main issues is that some people have not got any manners at all and see it their lifes work to sit on community sites trolling, it’s a shame really as some good people could be put off from joining these groups by a small group of narrow minded people.
No matter what what is decided and I hope the community can help Beasts of War to sort this issue, but I do think we could have the same conversation in a few years time.
@chaingun
No actually some of those that you call trolls, are usually painting and building models after a day at work. With BoW videos and other content from the net playing in the back ground.
I am painting my dropzone PHR atm
For me personally, it doesn’t effect me at all. I always stock up on TrollBeGone before logging onto a forum.
If someone wants to make a fool of himself, let him. I’ll simply down-thump him and move on to more interesting posts.
it is a good way of avoiding flame wars to be able to just do a thumbs down
Please keep reporting on everything and allow both thumbs up and down.
it is not many places that have an intelligent discussion on the forums.
and for you to continue to be the premium site, all issues and news should be address’ed.
if people don’t want to talk about or read about the business side of the hobby, they can easily not read the articles.
if you feel the need to make a change, make a symbol (and forum section) for “the dark side of the hobby, business and politics”
so that it is easy to avoid if people want to.
Things like GW’s changes in their policy to their resellers, and the court cases, are important, as they impact other players in the hobby industry.
If for example Chapter House lose, and disappear as a company the hobby will be poorer for it. As all they have done is to enhance and expand upon idea’s and models that were available with things that were missing.
The impact on who can do what, when the case is finished, will have great relevance to anyone that is in the hobby long term.
News is filtering through from a few UK retailers that GW are holding their shipments of Tau back a week. The natural conclusion to draw is that GW want people buying direct from them. This is likely to generate a negative response to GW on the forums but at the same time it has an impact on gamers, especially if this is to become standard policy for all new army releases. I think this is a good example of where you can’t divorce the company from the game and it needs to be allowed a discussion. If it looks like it’ll start dominating discussion then start an official Tau release thread and direct all discussion there. I also wouldn’t recommend discussing it on the weekender. Acknowledge it if you have to, but don’t discuss it.
I’m not going to wear a tinfoil hat on this one, I think its very positive that Tau have been so successful.
Just goes to show we are all closet Tau players at heart.
Really hope the book is good or there will be a LOT of disappointed folk out there – unless they ordered all that stuff just to paint!
Time will tell though I wouldn’t have any complaints if GW were trying to encourage customers to buy direct. I do have some sympathy with them on this. It’s generating speculation of this kind elsewhere on the internet but I haven’t seen any on BoW which is a good sign.
And a closet Tau player? You take that back, sir! lol
Yea, I’m out of the closet when it comes to the Tau. There has been a full army sitting at home in the box waiting to come out with the new codex. I really hope the codex is not disappointing. It was the first army I collected for 40K.
Well, it gets a little harder for folks like me to argue we should allow discussion of GW’s business after today’s shenanigans :(. At least we know the “thumbs down” option doesn’t stop flame wars lol. If you decide to direct discussion of the business side of things into specific threads then it looks like it’ll need to be moderated a bit more than other parts of the site.
Yup
I guess we kinda started to see the signs on the wall last week.
Now its come to a head hopefully that will be the end of it (for a while anyway).
I think I’m going to run with @stonemonkey56 eloquent description of the issue
“… Perhaps a better question is how is a given commenter effecting people’s enjoyment of the site – reasoned argument is fine but mindless heckling is a nuisance”
If its not adding anything and just deliberately annoying, I think we should just ‘pull the weed’
Thoughts?
I’m all for constructive discussion, the moment it turns to insults and name calling I would bring the hammer down. I mod over on the Mantic forum and we use a very light touch, we don’t clamp down at all on negative comments towards the company (as long as it’s constructive criticism). The moment it turns to name calling is when we step in. Is there a way of reporting posts to mods on the BoW forums?
Agreed.
Agreed
I picked up the latest Wargames illustrated Yeastery and one of the articals is about Forums and this guy who like me is very aprehensive towards forums and social networking sites for all the reasons given already. It talks about the pros and cons that he has found and how he got talking to a guy and after a period of exchanging views they met up for a game.
I won’t spoil it for you guys by giving too much away if you have not read the artical yet but I would strongly suggest that Warren and the Beasts of War guys and anyone else to get hold of the mag and check it out as I think it is exactly what we have been talking about.
I will admit that I have used the “Thumps Down” button on several occasions. Mostly because I simply want to let a poster know that he has posted something truly stupid, possibly even borderline trollish, without actually getting into a quote-war with him. However, I’ve often done so with the suspicion that I was simply feeding the troll, as some of these people seem to enjoy their bad reputation.
As such, I would be completely okay with removing that option. However, and this is a big however, I think the only proper way to do this is to do away with reputation entirely.
Let’s ask ourselves: what’s the purpose of reputation? Well, in most cases it is to single out users who consistently provide good and thoughtful input to the community – as well as those who do not. However, with no way to down-vote trolls, even the most obnoxious bridge-dweller can get a good reputation when the few good posts all count while the multitude of bad posts don’t.
As such, I feel that it must be all-or-nothing in this regard. Either we let people get whatever reputation they deserve – for better or worse – or we do not allow reputation at all.
But whatever that decision might eventually be, I certainly do not feel that Beasts of War should somehow limit what we can talk about. For many of us, the current prices and Games Workshop’s general behaviour in relation to indy-stores is a serious issue. I’ve personally seen my local community all but collapse over the last decade as both shops and clubs have shut down. No, Games Workshop is not uniquely to blame, but they certainly do carry a lot of the blame.
And so I’ve seen the hobby that’s been a big part of my life for nearly two decades dwindle and die. And this is, of course, something that I want to debate with others.
Occasionally this will result in heated words being exchanged. But given how many years, not to mention money, we have invested in this hobby, I can understand and forgive that.
That is not, I must stress, to say that such debates should be completely unmoderated. But unless they devolve into flamewars they should be allowed to run their course.
The removal of thumbs down speaks to an age old saying I was told when growing up. If you dont have anything nice to say then dont say it. It might seem simple and even a bit naive but certainly when it comes to the internet its possibly the best way. There will always be people that like to get on their soap box and rant and rave about the way certain companies conduct themselves and they have a right to do so, but the easiest way to deal with negativity is to ignore it. Seeing that you have no thumbs up at all may potentially have a greater impact than thumbs down as negativity feeds on negativity. Or if they feel that strongly they could have a forum specifically for such discussions, though it may be a rather grumpy place 🙂
There is obviously a time and a place for fair and just discussion and BOW is by far the best for giving both sides of an argument. I believe it was in another episode of the weekender when it was said that people vote with their feet. At the end of the day GW will do what they always do, which is provide some fantastic miniatures with some of the best fluff out there at the moment. They have the market and whilst it is changing (and more so everyday) the only real issue most people have with GW is price and its corporate side. I’ve just returned to the hobby and I used to collect Warhammer when I was a kid, the prices have vastly changed! but it is what it is and it prompted me to look at other systems but the actual game and models continue to be fantastic.
Anyway I hope that made some sense and keep up the good work guys!
ok finally had the chance to watch, I would say in general this is a positive community with both constructive and helpful posts. I would agree that thumbs down may not be the way to tackle negativity.
I freely admit my comments have a negative streak on occassion (I am a grumpy middle aged gamer) but I do try to balance and moderate this with caveats and fairness, but if my opinion of a new release is negative – I will share that, often trying to identify why (I am going to avoid the upcoming high elf release – as I know I will have nothing positive to say based on early leaks). I don’t share to savage or rip into anyone but ore as a conversation starter, let face it we hang out for news and our love of discussing the hobby. I find it odd how my opinion effects people enjoyment – I have never cared or need anyones permission to like something, and it seems alien to me that someone on the internet can effect people in such a way. Which is something to consider in future posts.
I would say remove thumbs down, but maybe add a report abuse function – as my negative votes tend to be in response to posts of an agressive or abusive tone. The other reason I have applied them is if a comment is very wrong in terms of accuracy of information – while a post will correct this, the thumbs ups can mean people will focus on the incorrect post and then take that as gospel to the next game etc. These mistakes are not malicious, but simple rules errors, I know I make them as well but feel that as a community identifying accurate posts is important is providing that support network.
I just joined BS and all I can say is BOW has always been a good group and Im not aware of this thumbs up and down stuff but I get your point.
Anyway…any free stuff 🙂 Help out an ex lepper kind Sir ?…Nevermind, Im on a Monty Python buz.